Thursday, July 05, 2007
Ask the Administrator: Job-Hunting While Pregnant
A new correspondent writes:
I'm wondering if you or your readers can shed any light on the issue of
women being pregnant while on the job market. Every academic woman planning
to become a mother has to weigh the timing of a pregnancy very carefully,
and the general assumption is that you never want to be pregnant while
you're on the job market. When you think about it from the perspective of
the woman, however, we're often weighing many issues that can conflict with
each-other: for example, whether a pregnancy is more feasible during
graduate school--even with dissertation writing and teaching--than it is
when you've gotten a tenure-track job, the question of when we can count on
having health insurance, and the possibilities for any maternity leave. Most
of the time, I think women try to time pregnancies so they can deliver a
baby at the beginning of the summer and extend their time at home, but the
timing of the (lengthy) academic job market process kills this possibility
since anyone getting pregnant in the late summer would be very visibly
pregnant during job interviews.
My main question is how much a pregnancy factors into a hiring decision. I'm
going on the market this year and have thought about waiting to get pregnant
with my second child until next year, but that makes no real sense to me
because then I'll have to go through the rigors of my first year while
dealing with all the variables of pregnancy. Plus, I'll be older, there's no
guarantee I'll find a job, and I don't really want to wait. Having already
had one child, I feel that taking a summer off to be with a newborn before I
start a full-time job would be so much better than taking the following
summer to do it, when I'm bound to have more responsibilities in a new
department. I know that there are a lot of factors that go into any woman's
decision to try to get pregnant, but for me this job-market question is a
big one, so any help would be appreciated.
Nope, no hot-button issues here! I don't have a general theory of academic fertility, but I can offer a few points, and I'll just ask readers who've negotiated these issues themselves to chime in with what they've found.
The easiest point first: it's illegal to hold pregnancy against a candidate. That isn't to say it never happens, or that it's always possible to determine what's going on in someone's head, but the law is on your side. It could be tough to prove in any given case, but you would be well advised to make notes of any inappropriate comments someone on the other side of the table happens to make. From a manager's perspective, the nightmare scenario is someone on the search committee saying something stupid to a candidate who wasn't going to win anyway. That gets ugly fast, because then the burden of proof is on the employer to show that its own boneheaded conduct was harmless. Typically, a committee stupid enough to say something out-of-bounds is also stupid enough not to keep really good records of how it made decisions. Good luck defending that in court.
In terms of trying to 'time' pregnancies so children are born in time for summer break, I'll just gently mention that not every couple conceives the first time out. Given the brevity of summer breaks, missing by just a couple of months could upset the apple cart pretty drastically. If you happen to hit the perfect time of year, congratulations, but I wouldn't advise building a plan that depends on it.
As unpredictable as fertility can be, the same can be said of the academic job market. You might get a great gig your first time out, or you might not. You might land a one-year position somewhere, so you're right back where you started next year at this time, but a little older. People have been known to hop from temporary job to temporary job for years.
In terms of how search committees view pregnancy, the best I can say is each committee is different. Ideally, none of them will consider it. And that's almost certainly true at the first screening stage, when the committee is just winnowing down the slush pile to pick the group to invite (or call) for first interviews. At that point, they simply wouldn't know. Once they've seen you, it may be impossible for them not to know.
Based on the demographic information I've seen over the years, the rule of thumb seems to be that the more research-oriented places are likelier to balk than the more teaching-oriented ones. But that's painting with a very broad stroke – as they say in the NFL, any given Sunday.
If you're at an interview, and you're at the point at which there's simply no way not to notice, I'd advise owning the issue and asking upfront about maternity leaves and the tenure clock. If you're not clearly showing, it's entirely your call what to do.
More broadly, I wouldn't advise making either decision – job or pregnancy – contingent on the other. Live your life, and let the chips fall where they may. There's no perfect time, and there never will be. If anything, waiting for the perfect time may push you to a point at which the issue is suddenly and mercilessly moot. This profession can be unspeakably inhuman in any number of ways. A little pressure on it to remember that people are complicated isn't a bad thing.
Wise and worldly readers – what do you think? What have you seen?
Have a question? Ask the Administrator at ccdean (at) myway (dot) com.
# posted by Dean Dad @ 3:53 AM 
Comments:
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I'm at a big, bad state U (research extensive), and over the last 11 years I've seen a change in how female candidates, and PREGNANT female candidates are viewed.
In the 1990s, visible pregnancy would have been the "kiss of death" in search committees. Female candidates were grilled as to family status/marital status in ways the male candidates never saw.
BUT! Beginning in 2000, when there was a tight corps of junior female faculty members, our senior colleagues were taken to the woodshed on their attitudes and behavior vis-a-vis faculty candidates. What really helped was to point out how many questions were actionable (ie they could be sued). Granted, pointing out to your colleagues that they could be sued in court (and we would be compelled to testify against them), was more than a bit bracing for the "guys." It was a very big 2x4 applied to the side of their sexist heads. However, it was effective. The dean of the school instituted mandatory "search training," from which no one could escape. And the numbed headed comments and questions stopped.
Attitudes? I don't know...but the overt stuff stopped.
But your writer is correct to be concerned. I'm sure some places still retain their knuckle-dragging ways.
In the 1990s, visible pregnancy would have been the "kiss of death" in search committees. Female candidates were grilled as to family status/marital status in ways the male candidates never saw.
BUT! Beginning in 2000, when there was a tight corps of junior female faculty members, our senior colleagues were taken to the woodshed on their attitudes and behavior vis-a-vis faculty candidates. What really helped was to point out how many questions were actionable (ie they could be sued). Granted, pointing out to your colleagues that they could be sued in court (and we would be compelled to testify against them), was more than a bit bracing for the "guys." It was a very big 2x4 applied to the side of their sexist heads. However, it was effective. The dean of the school instituted mandatory "search training," from which no one could escape. And the numbed headed comments and questions stopped.
Attitudes? I don't know...but the overt stuff stopped.
But your writer is correct to be concerned. I'm sure some places still retain their knuckle-dragging ways.
I'm down to three qualified finalists for a position. One of them has already indicated that very soon after the hiring she will claim maternity leave, so that I will have to fill the position on some sort of temporary basis.
I'm pretty certain I could come up with a non-preganancy-related justification for hiring one of the other two. I don't see how I could reasonably be expected to do otherwise. People who think that we must ignore true facts that will have a critical impact on employee performance are people who have become accustomed to paying salaries with Other People's Money.
I'm pretty certain I could come up with a non-preganancy-related justification for hiring one of the other two. I don't see how I could reasonably be expected to do otherwise. People who think that we must ignore true facts that will have a critical impact on employee performance are people who have become accustomed to paying salaries with Other People's Money.
# posted by 
: 5:19 AM
: 5:19 AM
"I don't see how I could reasonably by expected to do otherwise."
uhh....maybe because you're not an asshole? I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're saying she asked for you to hire someone else just by being pregnant. she's backed you into a corner and you have no choice, right? Wrong. I don't buy it.
as for the advice in the post, brilliant. I haven't done the job market thing but I do know it's a mistake to think you are in absolute control of your fertility. I got pregnant right away with the first but it took me a full year (as in 12 months of trying every month) to get pregnant a second time. Any plan contingent on your fertility is likely to get all shot to hell so best not to make one.
I think jobs and babies have got to be considered separately, like you say. that's kind of a bold position, I guess, but I think it's one worth embracing. otherwise, you find yourself tiptoeing around making major life decisions about your family based on what some cretin on a hiring committee *might* think...? is that what we really want? I don't. it's just not good enough for me. not just me, either. women deserve better.
uhh....maybe because you're not an asshole? I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're saying she asked for you to hire someone else just by being pregnant. she's backed you into a corner and you have no choice, right? Wrong. I don't buy it.
as for the advice in the post, brilliant. I haven't done the job market thing but I do know it's a mistake to think you are in absolute control of your fertility. I got pregnant right away with the first but it took me a full year (as in 12 months of trying every month) to get pregnant a second time. Any plan contingent on your fertility is likely to get all shot to hell so best not to make one.
I think jobs and babies have got to be considered separately, like you say. that's kind of a bold position, I guess, but I think it's one worth embracing. otherwise, you find yourself tiptoeing around making major life decisions about your family based on what some cretin on a hiring committee *might* think...? is that what we really want? I don't. it's just not good enough for me. not just me, either. women deserve better.
I have had a number of friends on the job market when they were pregnant, and each did quite well. I think it is important to act like the pregnancy is a non-issue, even if that is not true. The accommodations can be worked out after the offer is made.
If I were the one hiring, I would be looking at the candidate as a long-term investment, not just a filler for the short-term. So, if we have to get someone to cover courses for a semester, that is nothing compared to the years of work and contributions that I can get from this person. Chances are, I already have folks who have been covering for a year while we were doing the search!
If I were the one hiring, I would be looking at the candidate as a long-term investment, not just a filler for the short-term. So, if we have to get someone to cover courses for a semester, that is nothing compared to the years of work and contributions that I can get from this person. Chances are, I already have folks who have been covering for a year while we were doing the search!
It's hard to win a discrimination case, especially when you're the one who is asking the question.
Those laws were put in place because employers weren't hiring women. They weren't hiring women because it is more expensive--and a pain in the behind--to deal with maternity leave than it is to avoid it. In many cases, employers were avoiding even women WITHOUT any obvious signs of pregnancy.
Legally, there's no question that you can't discriminate against pregnant females. Socially, there's no question that it does happen, and will continue to happen.
Being visibly pregnant will surely hurt your chances. Being visibly pregnant and asking about leave, benefits, etc, will make things even worse. Sad but true.
Those laws were put in place because employers weren't hiring women. They weren't hiring women because it is more expensive--and a pain in the behind--to deal with maternity leave than it is to avoid it. In many cases, employers were avoiding even women WITHOUT any obvious signs of pregnancy.
Legally, there's no question that you can't discriminate against pregnant females. Socially, there's no question that it does happen, and will continue to happen.
Being visibly pregnant will surely hurt your chances. Being visibly pregnant and asking about leave, benefits, etc, will make things even worse. Sad but true.
Leaving aside the immediate question for a moment, I think we need to face the fact that most academic jobs, research 1 jobs in particular, are simply not designed to accommodate women's fertility (CCs tend to be a lot more accommodating, which is just one reason why I chose that path). The expectation of the white male professor productively publishing away while his housewhore is at home cooking dinner is alive and well based on my experience. And that is something that should be interrogated ruthlessly. I think Soze's post is pretty darn typical; his reasoning is actionable, but good luck proving it. Moreover, we are way behind what I have witnessed in industry with my female friends who have worked pregnancy and motherhood into some pretty high powered positions (though the corporate world really does have a long way still to go too). So much for billing ourselves as the "noble, liberal" work force. Solutions??
You said "I wouldn't advise making either decision – job or pregnancy – contingent on the other. Live your life, and let the chips fall where they may. There's no perfect time, and there never will be. If anything, waiting for the perfect time may push you to a point at which the issue is suddenly and mercilessly moot." IMHO, this is the best advice one could give in any circumstance, academic or not.
I'm lucky enough to have a full-time, long-term extremely stable job in a family-friendly workplace. And yet, I am afraid to tell senior management I'm pregnant because there's a juicy assignment coming up that I'm desperate for - and for which both senior management and I agree that I'm the best candidate. But it's a one-year assignment and I'm going on mat leave for a year in six months. But I lost the last baby at 4 months and don't want to jeopardize the opportunity and end up losing both the dream job and the baby. I'm fiercely loyal to my bosses and hate to deceive them, but for selfish reasons don't want to risk losing the assignment. I'm torn.
All this to say, even in the most positive, family-friendly, foward-thinking environments, pregnancy and the workplace are a minefield to be negotiated with care and fingers crossed. This is progress?
I'm lucky enough to have a full-time, long-term extremely stable job in a family-friendly workplace. And yet, I am afraid to tell senior management I'm pregnant because there's a juicy assignment coming up that I'm desperate for - and for which both senior management and I agree that I'm the best candidate. But it's a one-year assignment and I'm going on mat leave for a year in six months. But I lost the last baby at 4 months and don't want to jeopardize the opportunity and end up losing both the dream job and the baby. I'm fiercely loyal to my bosses and hate to deceive them, but for selfish reasons don't want to risk losing the assignment. I'm torn.
All this to say, even in the most positive, family-friendly, foward-thinking environments, pregnancy and the workplace are a minefield to be negotiated with care and fingers crossed. This is progress?
I'm nine months pregnant with my first. I'm an assistant professor at an R1 and I'm going up for tenure in 15 months. My point is that this question never goes away. And so I have to agree with the advice to make your decisions independent of one another.
Yes, it's probably an issue to be on the market when you're pregnant. But it's also an issue to ask for maternity leave in a system that has no set policy for faculty leave when you're untenured. (Yes, I know we're behing the times without a maternity leave policy).
Frankly, if you wait until after you've gotten a job in a department that wouldn't have given you a job if you were pregnant, chances are they are not going to be particularly accomodating when you do get pregnant. So, unfortuntately, the bottom line is that there's no good answer.
Except this: that you have to know who you are and what your priorities are to make a good decision; both about being pregnant and what kind of department you want (or are willing to take).
Yes, it's probably an issue to be on the market when you're pregnant. But it's also an issue to ask for maternity leave in a system that has no set policy for faculty leave when you're untenured. (Yes, I know we're behing the times without a maternity leave policy).
Frankly, if you wait until after you've gotten a job in a department that wouldn't have given you a job if you were pregnant, chances are they are not going to be particularly accomodating when you do get pregnant. So, unfortuntately, the bottom line is that there's no good answer.
Except this: that you have to know who you are and what your priorities are to make a good decision; both about being pregnant and what kind of department you want (or are willing to take).
# posted by : 10:01 AM
: 10:01 AM
As a mom of two kids under age 4 at a small-liberal arts college and as one who is going up for tenure in a year, I say, hey! If you don't really want to wait, then don't. With kids, no matter where you were or what job you had, your life would be challenging. But, as many of the other posts mention, you can't really control fertility anyway, so don't wait to do something you want to do -- the job market is so full of strange variables that you can't control it, either; if you waited to try to have a child and then didn't get a job and then couldn't get pregnant, you'd be pissed. So, as DD said, go for it and live your life. Other things will fall into place. ... I second what anonymous said, too: if you're worried about a department not hiring you because you were pregnant, would you really want to work with them anyway? Me, no. And so, a little vignette. I went on the job market this year under a certain obligation (after being asked by my old diss director to do so). I made a shortlist with a R1 dept (the job I had always thought I had wanted). I had to bring along my husband and my 2-month old son (who did great), because my son was not taking a bottle from ANYONE, and so it was either me, or nothing. I was really nervous about being there with a baby, but to my surprise, the older men on the faculty were the most gracious, the most informed, and the most polite men I had ever met (most of them had had wives who had stayed at home to raise their children). Perhaps they were concerned about legality, of course, but they were still great about it. It was the department's SINGLE WOMEN who work constantly that were cold and tried to avoid talking about the child, as if he were some sort of fancy bag I had brought along. or some sort of inconvenience that needed to be ignored entirely. In conjunction with this strange female weirdness about the baby, it did not take me long to decide that an R 1 job was not what I wanted anymore. My current position allows me a lovely balance between teaching, research, and home life. I would highly recommend something similar, and so I hope for you a non-R1 job that can give you some time to enjoy your kids and yourself, too.
On the topic of maternity leave: if you have a baby during your pre-tenure years, some places (like mine), do have generous leave policies. I have been on leave since the birth of my baby in December. I will finally start teaching again in August. So, if you are pregnant and interviewing, I would go ahead and either take the risk to ask about maternity leave, or else find out about the university's policies some other way. it is a really important issue, and you don't want to be left in the dark not knowing and then end up in a place about to have a baby and without a good maternity policy.
On the topic of maternity leave: if you have a baby during your pre-tenure years, some places (like mine), do have generous leave policies. I have been on leave since the birth of my baby in December. I will finally start teaching again in August. So, if you are pregnant and interviewing, I would go ahead and either take the risk to ask about maternity leave, or else find out about the university's policies some other way. it is a really important issue, and you don't want to be left in the dark not knowing and then end up in a place about to have a baby and without a good maternity policy.
# posted by : 12:31 PM
: 12:31 PM
I'm one of those lucky women who had a child (unplanned) during graduate school. It was the best way, as both my husband and I had flexible schedules. But a few of my professors looked at me as if I would never finish. I did, however.
I imagine the process would only be more difficult if I had waited until I was on the job market or in a tenure track job.
Friends have asked me if I would have a child in graduate school if I had to do it again, and I say absolutely.
I have friends who are in tenure track jobs with high publishing expectations, and they have two kids. I don't know how they do it.
I know that people say academia has changed, and I think it's partially true, but I also think that many academics have trouble walking the talk where feminism and motherhood are concerned.
That said, I think my current department (at a CC) would be very flexible, but since I was hired, no one has needed maternity leave.
I imagine the process would only be more difficult if I had waited until I was on the job market or in a tenure track job.
Friends have asked me if I would have a child in graduate school if I had to do it again, and I say absolutely.
I have friends who are in tenure track jobs with high publishing expectations, and they have two kids. I don't know how they do it.
I know that people say academia has changed, and I think it's partially true, but I also think that many academics have trouble walking the talk where feminism and motherhood are concerned.
That said, I think my current department (at a CC) would be very flexible, but since I was hired, no one has needed maternity leave.
I'm a tenured faculty member and part-time admin-type at a highly competitive R1 university. In the academic units I've been affiliated, we've been very supportive of female tenure-track faculty. This support also exists at the level of the Deans and higher (ex. friendly tenure-clock policies when pregnant, etc). This might be in part because our strong fields are those where females are disproportionately under-represented, and competition to hire is strong.
Having said that, everything is local! I've learned through the grapevine that my feelgood attitude about how my colleagues treat their female colleagues and faculty recruits just happens to be in the academic units I am a part of, and there are some departments where they really do have a knuckle-dragging mentality that the higher-ups are trying to pull them out of.
The lesson? You can't even generalize a given university. Just make the independent decision.
Having said that, everything is local! I've learned through the grapevine that my feelgood attitude about how my colleagues treat their female colleagues and faculty recruits just happens to be in the academic units I am a part of, and there are some departments where they really do have a knuckle-dragging mentality that the higher-ups are trying to pull them out of.
The lesson? You can't even generalize a given university. Just make the independent decision.
It strikes me that market forces also apply. If you're in a field where the search committee is narrowing the list from 150 applicants meeting the qualifications, the question of how to manage impressions of pregnancy is very real. If you're in a tough-to-hire field (say, IT or Nursing), then you have more leverage -- the reality of trying to fill the position is going to drive the decision a lot more. And some way to alleviate the search committee's pain (i.e., what do we do in the interim, or will you just decide to stay home) might be valuable.
# posted by : 1:58 PM
: 1:58 PM
Well, first off, Snarky Prof's namecalling "housewhore" is no more a moral high ground (or respectful of people's choices in life) than is that of faculty members who discriminate against pregnant women (and, as anonymous noted, it can be both male and female faculty members).
I do think that there is still an overall uneasiness in many academic settings about hiring pregnant women. I also agree that how this impacts job candidates can vary at individual campuses. I am at a large state R 1 wannabe and we have hired women who are pregnant, and have maternal leave policies and "clock stopping" for the tenure clock. Don't have campus day care, though.
Interesting topic. Good advice from DD and others.
I do think that there is still an overall uneasiness in many academic settings about hiring pregnant women. I also agree that how this impacts job candidates can vary at individual campuses. I am at a large state R 1 wannabe and we have hired women who are pregnant, and have maternal leave policies and "clock stopping" for the tenure clock. Don't have campus day care, though.
Interesting topic. Good advice from DD and others.
# posted by : 2:37 PM
: 2:37 PM
A comment to one of the anon commentors about the attitude of the women on the search committee (the vignette)... It may be that the women don't like children. I know a number of women who pursue R1 positions with heavy research and publish expectations. They (all of the women I know) are in that particular sort of U specifically because they do not want to have kids - ever.
It's hard to fake enthusiasm for someone else's children if you don't like kids generally. I'm at a comm. col. but have no intention of having offspring of my own. My husband and I have already decided that children are not something we want. Also, I don't particularly like to give any of my time or attention to other people's kids. They can stay at home as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with my feelings on maternity leave or a woman's choice to reproduce. If you want to do so, live it up. Just don't involve me in the activity.
My point? Maybe the faculty members simply don't like 'little ones' and it has nothing to do with them being cold or disinterested in you as a candidate. Not all of us love kids or talking about them.
It's hard to fake enthusiasm for someone else's children if you don't like kids generally. I'm at a comm. col. but have no intention of having offspring of my own. My husband and I have already decided that children are not something we want. Also, I don't particularly like to give any of my time or attention to other people's kids. They can stay at home as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with my feelings on maternity leave or a woman's choice to reproduce. If you want to do so, live it up. Just don't involve me in the activity.
My point? Maybe the faculty members simply don't like 'little ones' and it has nothing to do with them being cold or disinterested in you as a candidate. Not all of us love kids or talking about them.
# posted by : 3:47 PM
: 3:47 PM
In response to the above comment by the Anonymous child-free person (I am the Anonymous writer of the vignette): hey, no problem, I am cool with the fact that some people don't like kids or like to talk about them much. I didn't for a long time, and sometimes I still don't even like mine (or really their behavior). That said, the fact that I still was interested enough in a job to pay and bring my (very quiet and easy) baby along to the interview could have elicited even just a comment. Not that I want people to whinge on about my kid, and not that I really even myself like talking about kid stuff a lot (in fact I don't), but just an acknowledgement of something about my situation would have been appropriate, I think. I've interviewed candidates for jobs in our department at my small liberal arts college, and I try, within legal parameters of course, to make them feel at ease by trying to find something they might like to talk about outside the field (their dog, car, ipod, whatever). All I am saying is that a mere overture to me as a parent on the part of the other women in that department would have been kind of polite, if not a nice accepting gesture. I would have spoken just briefly about the baby and then moved on to something else, of course, since talking about ones kids in an academic setting as serious as a job interview is not a good idea anyway, whether one likes to talk about the kids a lot or not.
# posted by : 5:41 PM
: 5:41 PM
Good topic, and good advice from Dean Dad! I planned like crazy, and none of it came out as expected, so I definitively agree with all of the comments about uncontrolled variables. I had a baby the year before I finished graduate school (after four years of trying), and then another baby right before I went up for tenure. I didn't get hired when I interviewed visibly pregnant. Telling my department chair that I needed a semester off for my second baby, due in September, wasn't fun either. And no, my institution doesn't offer maternity leave beyond the option of taking some sick leave. The best you can do in any such situation is to respond flexibly and creatively -- but don't let concern about it keep you from doing what is really important to you personally.
# posted by : 7:51 PM
: 7:51 PM
KS's point about the cost to the employer is real, but from a manager's perspective, I'd rather deal with parental leave than with a long-term chronic illness. Pregnancy is temporary, and parental leaves have set end dates. I can plan around those. The long-term chronic illnesses are _much_ harder to plan around. As medical issues go, pregnancy is actually one of the easier ones from this side of the desk.
Those of you who have commented that your institutions do not provide maternity leave should know that Federal law--the Family and Medical Leave Act--gives workers, including pregnant women, up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave per fiscal year. Many states have enacted more liberal legislation.
It's also difficult to imagine that management would not allow pregnant women to use their accrued sick leave before taking an unpaid family leave. A letter from a doctor would almost certainly satisfy even the strictest of HR directors; furthermore, sick leave is an unpaid liability. So because salaries generally go up, a day--or 20 days--of sick leave are cheaper now than they will be ten years from now.
--Union Guy
It's also difficult to imagine that management would not allow pregnant women to use their accrued sick leave before taking an unpaid family leave. A letter from a doctor would almost certainly satisfy even the strictest of HR directors; furthermore, sick leave is an unpaid liability. So because salaries generally go up, a day--or 20 days--of sick leave are cheaper now than they will be ten years from now.
--Union Guy
# posted by : 8:26 AM
: 8:26 AM
Speaking of the FMLA, its protections - both interference with your use of it and retaliating against you (to include not reinstating you) for using it - are fairly extensive. To the pregnant prof who is up for tenure in 15 months, a "pass" on tenure due to your maternity leave would be an interesting case. If you suspect interference or retaliation, give the U.S. Department of Labor or an attorney a call (you've already paid for the former, the latter could be cost prohibitive).
As for the comment about mixing sick leave and FMLA leave - beware that your employer can lawfully run your 12 weeks of FMLA leave at the same time other forms of leave are used. So, if you were going to take your 12 weeks of FMLA time and then two weeks vacation and then a week of sick leave to create a fifteen week maternity leave - note that you may not be able to use them cumulatively versus simultaneously. So, plan ahead.
As for the comment about mixing sick leave and FMLA leave - beware that your employer can lawfully run your 12 weeks of FMLA leave at the same time other forms of leave are used. So, if you were going to take your 12 weeks of FMLA time and then two weeks vacation and then a week of sick leave to create a fifteen week maternity leave - note that you may not be able to use them cumulatively versus simultaneously. So, plan ahead.
# posted by : 12:39 PM
: 12:39 PM
I'm a dean of science at a public university and I have been there, done that on both sides -- did a job interview while pregnant, and three with a nursing infant in tow in the late 80s, then just this past year I tried to hire a faculty member in math who confessed to me (but not to the department) that she was pregnant.
I didn't get ANY offers on those job interviews of mine...the following year (when I had neither the belly nor the boobs) I had three offers. I don't know that things would be much better these days -- people might not act overtly illegally, but there is a tendency in our society to treat any pregnant woman as though she is a little girl.
With my job candidate I did everything possible at my institution to get her here -- we need more like her. I was happy that she trusted me enough to tell me what was going on, but her pregnancy also factored into her decision to go elsewhere. I couldn't offer her as much of a teaching load reduction she wanted (due to constraints of our union contract and our college's policies) where our competition had more flexibility and a lower cost of living.
But had I been a man, would she have even revealed her situation? Would I have had the opportunity to try to help her? Probably not. Even though the chair of the department she interviewed in is a woman, our candidate did not even tell her of the situation! I think the only reason she opened up to me is that I make a habit of dropping hints about my own trials and tribulations in conversation with candidates (both male and female) to try to let them know that I am sympathetic.
I'm pretty sure academe is still not ready to cope. She still felt the need to hide -- and I can't blame her.
I didn't get ANY offers on those job interviews of mine...the following year (when I had neither the belly nor the boobs) I had three offers. I don't know that things would be much better these days -- people might not act overtly illegally, but there is a tendency in our society to treat any pregnant woman as though she is a little girl.
With my job candidate I did everything possible at my institution to get her here -- we need more like her. I was happy that she trusted me enough to tell me what was going on, but her pregnancy also factored into her decision to go elsewhere. I couldn't offer her as much of a teaching load reduction she wanted (due to constraints of our union contract and our college's policies) where our competition had more flexibility and a lower cost of living.
But had I been a man, would she have even revealed her situation? Would I have had the opportunity to try to help her? Probably not. Even though the chair of the department she interviewed in is a woman, our candidate did not even tell her of the situation! I think the only reason she opened up to me is that I make a habit of dropping hints about my own trials and tribulations in conversation with candidates (both male and female) to try to let them know that I am sympathetic.
I'm pretty sure academe is still not ready to cope. She still felt the need to hide -- and I can't blame her.
# posted by : 12:47 PM
: 12:47 PM
I'm recently tenured at a private R1 with a two year old. My big plan was to get tenure and then start a family, but I realized part way into the process that I might be cutting the fertility clock a little close if I waited. We have a generous semester leave policy which I then combined with summer research part time to get 6 months before teaching again. I stopped the clock for one year as allowed by our tenure policy and things worked out. I was a little nervous because I was the first in our school to use the policy, but it ended well. Despite generally friendly support from my all male department, I have heard others make comments about one female (mid-career) candidate who was very open about her pregnancy during an interview. My response when that person mentioned the pregnancy to me was, "How wonderful for her, what a great example for women in the field that you can be successful and have a family."
The bottom line is that there is no perfect time to have kids, so just do what is right for you. It will be totally crazy and life changing, so it doesn't matter how much you plan, there will be CHAOS. But, if you want a family and you want to be in a family-friendly place, then do what is right for you. Just don't forget about pregnancy brain. I was naive about how spacey I would be for all 9 months.
Good luck --- AP at R1
The bottom line is that there is no perfect time to have kids, so just do what is right for you. It will be totally crazy and life changing, so it doesn't matter how much you plan, there will be CHAOS. But, if you want a family and you want to be in a family-friendly place, then do what is right for you. Just don't forget about pregnancy brain. I was naive about how spacey I would be for all 9 months.
Good luck --- AP at R1
# posted by : 1:01 PM
: 1:01 PM
I don't understand all this drama over a semester's primary care-giver leave (yes, MEN take these leaves too, at institutions that have appropriate policies), when people take a semester's leave for all kinds of reasons, medical or professional. Candidates who are offered jobs, particularly at the junior level, may easily turn around and say that they'd like to delay the start date for a year due to a postdoctoral opportunity. There can be no telling what anyone, pregnant or not, might ask for after the offer is given, so why single out pregnancy as some kind of extraordinary state?
# posted by : 1:10 PM
: 1:10 PM
The EEOC issued a guidance on May 23, 2007 that previous posters might find interesting and illuminating.
Enforcement Guidance: Unlawful Disparate Treatment of Workers with Caregiving Responsibilities
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/caregiving.html
Among the topics covered are pregnancy discrimination and other unlawful gender role stereotyping of working women.
Enforcement Guidance: Unlawful Disparate Treatment of Workers with Caregiving Responsibilities
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/caregiving.html
Among the topics covered are pregnancy discrimination and other unlawful gender role stereotyping of working women.
# posted by : 1:31 PM
: 1:31 PM
Balancing an academic career and motherhood is definitely a challenge. I have two children and am currently in a fellowship position - wondering if there will ever be a "convenient" time to have a third?? I put forth that it may not be worth it to work in a department that would choose not to hire a pregnant applicant. I expect that the insensitivity would be likely to extend to other family issues as well - when children are sick, have programs at school, etc.
# posted by : 2:36 PM
: 2:36 PM
I'm coming to this a little late, and I also have a pretty big chip on my shoulder about the subject so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but: I just wanted to comment on the liberal arts college/R1 distinction that's getting made here. In some ways, LACs can be more difficult about such things, because there can be an expectation that you will be brilliant at teaching, research, AND service, and the latter can entail quite a lot of attendance at various campus events. And work with recruitment and retention. And advising. And the teaching can require huge amounts of attention to individual students outside of class. I don't think that these things are bad, mind you, but they don't necessarily contribute to an easier parenting atmosphere. R1s certainly have their own requirements/challenges (I'm sure grad students suck time, too, though I wouldn't know from personal experience), but my impression is that in many cases, success is measured by the bottom line of research productivity, and if you produce, no one's going to ask why you haven't been on campus or been a "presence."
This isn't to say that R1 positions are somehow easier than LAC positions, but just to caution against romanticizing the latter. I guess really I'm just seconding the idea that it's impossible to generalize across kinds of institutions (or even within institutions).
All that being said, I remember the women faculty in my grad program saying the same thing about having kids - do it when YOU want to do it, because there's no right time to do it, career-wise.
This isn't to say that R1 positions are somehow easier than LAC positions, but just to caution against romanticizing the latter. I guess really I'm just seconding the idea that it's impossible to generalize across kinds of institutions (or even within institutions).
All that being said, I remember the women faculty in my grad program saying the same thing about having kids - do it when YOU want to do it, because there's no right time to do it, career-wise.
As the original author of this 'hot topics' question to Dean Dad, thanks to him and everyone who commented. This is all quite helpful, as I just wanted to get inside the brain, as it were, of those who do the hiring and to see if anyone else would consider interviewing pregnant.
One follow-up question: what constitutes a good maternity leave policy? I'm looking into a job now that offers 8 weeks (unpaid) leave. Is that good?
One follow-up question: what constitutes a good maternity leave policy? I'm looking into a job now that offers 8 weeks (unpaid) leave. Is that good?
wwwmama:
I'm the poster at a big, bad state U. We have very generous maternity leave policies (1 semester), which if bundled with a summer of not teaching (summer teaching is ALWAYS optional), you can have a total of 9 months off (though life with a newborn isn't exactly "restful"). Not sure about the rate of pay, whether it's full salary or disability pay.
The maternity leave policy was altered (IMPROVED) by the U in the early 2000s in an effort to improve the tenure rates for female faculty members.
Good luck getting this sorted out.
I'm the poster at a big, bad state U. We have very generous maternity leave policies (1 semester), which if bundled with a summer of not teaching (summer teaching is ALWAYS optional), you can have a total of 9 months off (though life with a newborn isn't exactly "restful"). Not sure about the rate of pay, whether it's full salary or disability pay.
The maternity leave policy was altered (IMPROVED) by the U in the early 2000s in an effort to improve the tenure rates for female faculty members.
Good luck getting this sorted out.
I'm at a SLAC - I don't think 8 weeks unpaid is good. I got 2 months paid, although since my due date was just a few weeks into the semester and 2 months took me to about 2 weeks before the end of it, I was able to negotiate an extremely light load. In the end I taught a few lectures and came in to hear a senior oral defense.
Frankly I think anything less than a semester is crazy - even the students I think suffer from having to switch gears if someone has to teach part courses. I could have taken up to an additional 10 months unpaid, which I didn't take since I had the summer to work lightly after my leave was over. I also got a year hold put on tenure.
I have friends at similar schools who do get full semesters off. I'd say 8 weeks paid is minimally good; 12 or 16 weeks paid is very nice. Unpaid leave, and no option for a tenure hold are ridiculous.
Frankly I think anything less than a semester is crazy - even the students I think suffer from having to switch gears if someone has to teach part courses. I could have taken up to an additional 10 months unpaid, which I didn't take since I had the summer to work lightly after my leave was over. I also got a year hold put on tenure.
I have friends at similar schools who do get full semesters off. I'd say 8 weeks paid is minimally good; 12 or 16 weeks paid is very nice. Unpaid leave, and no option for a tenure hold are ridiculous.
# posted by : 6:28 PM
: 6:28 PM
I'm a student at a SLAC. Last year, my department was looking to replace an older Prof who had been able to cover quite a bit of ground course material-wise (we only have two profs in the sub-field), so the new hire would have to be 1)Flexible as hell; 2)Able to advise students (including extensive advising for a required Senior Thesis); 3)Able to do the million things that SLACs require of their profs. The final 4 candidates presented to the department's Junior Research Seminar, and all were pretty fantastic.
We ended up hiring the pregnant candidate straight out of a very good PhD program (but who had a bunch of really great research/public history experience) over a young male candidate from an Ivy League U and a female candidate from a respected Private U in the area.
Best decision the department has made in a long time.
Granted, the timing worked out well (she didn't have to miss any time), but it certainly meant that she would have less time for students than the single guy from Ivy League U.
One bit of advice for everyone here, which I haven't seen a whole lot of on here: INVOLVE THE STUDENTS!!!!!
Any school (R1, SLAC, CC, whatever) that hires anyone, pregnant or otherwise, without asking for significant student input are really foolish. Let me tell you: students don't really care if a candidate is pregnant. Much like a few comments hinted at above, hiring is a long term decision, and students understand this, even if for them it just means 3 years with a new Prof. Here's what we want from a new Prof:
1) A decent human being
2) A quality scholar. Being published is nice, but knowing where to send students for further reading/research is really the key
3) A well thought out syllabus that is well paced and kept through the course of a semester.
For the most part, students don't care about (or simply aren't aware of) inter-department politics/squabbles/what have you. So they're the best judge of how well a new faculty member will perform. Frankly, they don't care if she has 6 kids and another on the way.
We ended up hiring the pregnant candidate straight out of a very good PhD program (but who had a bunch of really great research/public history experience) over a young male candidate from an Ivy League U and a female candidate from a respected Private U in the area.
Best decision the department has made in a long time.
Granted, the timing worked out well (she didn't have to miss any time), but it certainly meant that she would have less time for students than the single guy from Ivy League U.
One bit of advice for everyone here, which I haven't seen a whole lot of on here: INVOLVE THE STUDENTS!!!!!
Any school (R1, SLAC, CC, whatever) that hires anyone, pregnant or otherwise, without asking for significant student input are really foolish. Let me tell you: students don't really care if a candidate is pregnant. Much like a few comments hinted at above, hiring is a long term decision, and students understand this, even if for them it just means 3 years with a new Prof. Here's what we want from a new Prof:
1) A decent human being
2) A quality scholar. Being published is nice, but knowing where to send students for further reading/research is really the key
3) A well thought out syllabus that is well paced and kept through the course of a semester.
For the most part, students don't care about (or simply aren't aware of) inter-department politics/squabbles/what have you. So they're the best judge of how well a new faculty member will perform. Frankly, they don't care if she has 6 kids and another on the way.
# posted by : 7:35 AM
: 7:35 AM
Re: maternity leave policies. My R1 has a very good policy, I think. All full-time faculty and staff get 10 weeks paid leave. Of course, teaching faculty are committed to a 15-week semester, so they're given a semester off from teaching and asked to negotiate some "5 weeks worth" of service with their department heads to be completed at any time during the year (advising, organizing a conference, sitting on a committee, etc). Plus, tenure-track faculty can have the tenure clock stopped for a year. This is a REALLY nice perk, definitely look into it.
# posted by : 5:39 PM
: 5:39 PM
wwwmama, I'm at a R-1 wannabe, and we have 6 weeks paid, which is considered disability leave and the possibility of stopping the tenure clock for a year if the provost approves. That being said, I sought neither because it is was my last year pre-tenure and I honestly think it would make a difference in a tight budget time, which we are having.
# posted by : 5:51 PM
: 5:51 PM
I've had a tenured position at a CC for 16 years. When I applied, I was straight out of graduate school, and just married. We threw away birth control and decided to take our chances because we wanted a baby. Shortly after the job interview I found out I was pregnant, then was offered the job. I took it, but lost the baby, one of five I lost. I got pregnant again, lost it again, then got pregnant a year after being hired and gave birth in March. I was able to take spring quarter off, unpaid, since there is no paid maternity leave where I work. They did let me use a few days of sick leave spread out so I could keep medical insurance. The college was very supportive in all other ways and I got tenure without problem. I'm glad I didn't wait (Having had six pregnancies and only one child, and having endured futile fertility treatment after the birth of my daughter, I consider my almost 15-year-old my miracle child.) Anyway, my CC administration loves babies (my new dean has an 18-month old!), and unlike research U's I think pregnancy is welcomed there.
i am ABD and a great one year position has come up at a local college. In an odd blessing of abundance, I have been called for an interview in the same week I found out I am pregnant. would it be unethical to wait and see if i get an offer? unacceptable to request a spring-summer-fall year, instead of starting in the fall? I would like to preserve a good connection with this school in the event of future positions. Passing altogether on the opportunity is probably necessary, but as a mom-to-be, living off a salary as opposed to unending student loas is also attractive. thanks
# posted by : 5:21 PM
: 5:21 PM
As I read the comments, I found that most of these have a similar situation with my neighbor, Donna. She in her second trimester of pregnancy. Unfortunately, she was laid off from her previous job but then she wanted to be secure, especially in her current situation. Seeking assistance from reemployment services was a saving grace for her, and she's gonna be starting her new job soon. The maternity leaves were arranged.
All told, pregnancy should never be a hindrance for any woman seeking for a job. With the right consultation and arrangement, she is poised to succeed in the job market.
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All told, pregnancy should never be a hindrance for any woman seeking for a job. With the right consultation and arrangement, she is poised to succeed in the job market.
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